Hi all, long time since my last post, I do however need the max info I can get to help me make a decision.
I want to upgrade (or "sidegrade" - will explain) my cinema setup.
It's a dedicated room : 7,33m long 4,45m wide and 2,75m ceiling. Currently running 7.2.4 Atmos (technically speaking its 7.1.4, it remains a 1 despite having more than 1 sub). B&W CM10 S2 L+R with matching Center, B&W 685 surround and rears. B&W CCM 362 (I think) in ceiling. Marantz 7703 with 8807 and 7055 amps. Zappiti + NAS for content. 120" screen with Epson 9400. SVS PB-4000 x2 for subs.
90% movies / Netflix, 10% music (maybe 95% 5% even)
I'm very happy with the system, but there is room for improvement. The center is not identical to the L+R and also I'd like it behind an AT screen. First order of business is to decide on which LCR to go for.
I can go in wall or in room - in room would be cheaper, in wall requires a baffle wall to be optimal, and some "fake pillars" for the surrounds.
I setup with UMIK-1 and REW and can usually get a good flat response with a nice "house curve" for the low end.
Reading only brings you that far and you can't demo the stuff I'm looking at, so I'm going to buy the contenders, audition them in my own cinema for a week, calibrated and sell them. Will cost me a small fortune for this, but it is the ultimate way to decide what your next 5-10 year speakers will be.
So I like the detail resolution if the CM10's, the cost is slight harshness when loud (I have sensitive ears, also very good hearing. I watch at -15 to -12 from reference with the 90db sensitive CM10's, a bit lower with higher sensitivity speakers (will get to that). The midrange is pleasant to me and bass is bass managed so I leave that to the subs. The dome tweeters have a wide area where vocals appear, but to my ears get just a tiny touch harsh at my preferred listening level.
So the search for the "ideal" speaker for my ears begin. I don't have the budget for very high end stuff with Beryllium tweeter.
I don't think I'll go for ribbons for cinema, efficiency may be a bit low. but will keep an open mind.
And I have to get something that is available locally.
Well designed in wall is okay - but it needs an engineered backbox, otherwise resonance may be an issue and you can't predict the speakers performance as well as a boxed speaker.
I have to go to matching LCR's, the soundstage is just better, will go AT screen.
In rooms are fine, saves me building a baffle wall and surround pillars.
List of considered brands :
B&W again
Klipsch
Triad
Please suggest others. Would be nice to have Revel in SA that publish off axis response and not just dispersion angles, but most well designed speakers should be good off axis. This factors into your room acoustics layout (which I have also, so it's a treated room - according to Dr Toole's research at Harman and following the modern application of the science / evidence)
I've bought the Klipsch THX Ultra2 LCR 6000's (KL-650 in some countries). This is a titanium compression driver with waveguide design and the identical LCR's gave a better soundstage than the CM10 setup. The high freq was less revealing, but once EQ'd not dull, very smooth in fact and not harsh at any volume (till your ears start hurting due to SPL). Blindfolded (once setup and EQ's correctly in a treated room) you would be hard pressed to know it's a "horn". The dialogue is very directional due to the directivity of the horn, making the dialogue "bubble" smaller than a dome tweeter. Flipside is off axis is not so important because reflections are less, especially vertically. The B&W still has the edge with music and detail. Very close, probably comes down to preference in the end.
I'd like the detail of the CM10's with the smoothness of the Klipsch (I know that sounds backwards, but well designed compression drivers in treated room are not "harsh" at all). O and the Klipsch sound great at low volumes, very nice bonus. B&W you have to give more volume. Both reach my desired SPL without compression / distortion.
(PS - DIY could be an option, good with my hands, but don't have the time. Also not going pro cinema (JBL 3677/4722 or QSC), just don't need the output in my room. Emphasis on quality and smooth sound at high -12db from reference.
I want to get the B&W CT 7.3's next, had them long ago, but not with my current setup. I remember it was the almost perfect cinema speaker the last time, only the soft dome tweeter didn't have the desired clarity. Which one can argue, like the Klipsch, is "more realistic", but that's a taste difference IMO.
Other than that I can't get any in wall B&W like the CWM 7.3 S2 (which has a carbon dome tweeter similar to the 700 series), seeing as building and changing a baffle wall to demo these in home is where I draw the line.
Then Triad... expensive, but the Silver range seems within reach.
Pro's? Many....
VERY good reviews from many online.
Installers and guys decades in the business use it for their own cinemas.
Able to match all drivers in a systems - LCR, surround, atmos - all same drivers, doesn't matter if it's in wall, in room or in ceiling - perfect timbre matching.
Very "no bull" approach, well designed and decision about which speaker range you need is based on the room and the output (and quality) desired, within budget.
Cons?
All just stuff I read and opinions. Will have to fork out around R90k to find out if it really is better that the rest.
Many people are very happy with B&W CWM's and Klipsch, but loads of people suggest Triad as they have had many brands and in the end it gives that ideal sound - the details and clarity that I want, but no strain at high volume. Plus the timbre matching and many options to choose from, all in walls have proper engineered MDF back boxes. Also you can get a bipole for surrounds, helpfull if someone is close to the surround, though not needed for the middle seat especially with atmos / object based audio and a wide dispersion design speaker, but Triad has the option while B&W don not. Klipsch also has the option for a bipole.
So it's a long one, sorry. I'll be happy to check back occasionally when time allows and answer more questions and also answer questions people may have with regards to the speakers I've auditioned in home, if you were looking at one of those and need a well formed opinion.
So please feel free to discuss and suggest. LCR identical, center behind AT screen. Will follow up with matching surrounds / ceiling. Should I risk traid? Should I demo the CT7.3's again? (Think I should but that's another buy and resell loss and one can only pay so much towards the hunt for an upgrade) Should I blindly go to B&W in walls?
Budget is 30k each for the LCR's max. MAX. (I could get the Klipsch for less)
Thanks for your time and consideration!
I want to upgrade (or "sidegrade" - will explain) my cinema setup.
It's a dedicated room : 7,33m long 4,45m wide and 2,75m ceiling. Currently running 7.2.4 Atmos (technically speaking its 7.1.4, it remains a 1 despite having more than 1 sub). B&W CM10 S2 L+R with matching Center, B&W 685 surround and rears. B&W CCM 362 (I think) in ceiling. Marantz 7703 with 8807 and 7055 amps. Zappiti + NAS for content. 120" screen with Epson 9400. SVS PB-4000 x2 for subs.
90% movies / Netflix, 10% music (maybe 95% 5% even)
I'm very happy with the system, but there is room for improvement. The center is not identical to the L+R and also I'd like it behind an AT screen. First order of business is to decide on which LCR to go for.
I can go in wall or in room - in room would be cheaper, in wall requires a baffle wall to be optimal, and some "fake pillars" for the surrounds.
I setup with UMIK-1 and REW and can usually get a good flat response with a nice "house curve" for the low end.
Reading only brings you that far and you can't demo the stuff I'm looking at, so I'm going to buy the contenders, audition them in my own cinema for a week, calibrated and sell them. Will cost me a small fortune for this, but it is the ultimate way to decide what your next 5-10 year speakers will be.
So I like the detail resolution if the CM10's, the cost is slight harshness when loud (I have sensitive ears, also very good hearing. I watch at -15 to -12 from reference with the 90db sensitive CM10's, a bit lower with higher sensitivity speakers (will get to that). The midrange is pleasant to me and bass is bass managed so I leave that to the subs. The dome tweeters have a wide area where vocals appear, but to my ears get just a tiny touch harsh at my preferred listening level.
So the search for the "ideal" speaker for my ears begin. I don't have the budget for very high end stuff with Beryllium tweeter.
I don't think I'll go for ribbons for cinema, efficiency may be a bit low. but will keep an open mind.
And I have to get something that is available locally.
Well designed in wall is okay - but it needs an engineered backbox, otherwise resonance may be an issue and you can't predict the speakers performance as well as a boxed speaker.
I have to go to matching LCR's, the soundstage is just better, will go AT screen.
In rooms are fine, saves me building a baffle wall and surround pillars.
List of considered brands :
B&W again
Klipsch
Triad
Please suggest others. Would be nice to have Revel in SA that publish off axis response and not just dispersion angles, but most well designed speakers should be good off axis. This factors into your room acoustics layout (which I have also, so it's a treated room - according to Dr Toole's research at Harman and following the modern application of the science / evidence)
I've bought the Klipsch THX Ultra2 LCR 6000's (KL-650 in some countries). This is a titanium compression driver with waveguide design and the identical LCR's gave a better soundstage than the CM10 setup. The high freq was less revealing, but once EQ'd not dull, very smooth in fact and not harsh at any volume (till your ears start hurting due to SPL). Blindfolded (once setup and EQ's correctly in a treated room) you would be hard pressed to know it's a "horn". The dialogue is very directional due to the directivity of the horn, making the dialogue "bubble" smaller than a dome tweeter. Flipside is off axis is not so important because reflections are less, especially vertically. The B&W still has the edge with music and detail. Very close, probably comes down to preference in the end.
I'd like the detail of the CM10's with the smoothness of the Klipsch (I know that sounds backwards, but well designed compression drivers in treated room are not "harsh" at all). O and the Klipsch sound great at low volumes, very nice bonus. B&W you have to give more volume. Both reach my desired SPL without compression / distortion.
(PS - DIY could be an option, good with my hands, but don't have the time. Also not going pro cinema (JBL 3677/4722 or QSC), just don't need the output in my room. Emphasis on quality and smooth sound at high -12db from reference.
I want to get the B&W CT 7.3's next, had them long ago, but not with my current setup. I remember it was the almost perfect cinema speaker the last time, only the soft dome tweeter didn't have the desired clarity. Which one can argue, like the Klipsch, is "more realistic", but that's a taste difference IMO.
Other than that I can't get any in wall B&W like the CWM 7.3 S2 (which has a carbon dome tweeter similar to the 700 series), seeing as building and changing a baffle wall to demo these in home is where I draw the line.
Then Triad... expensive, but the Silver range seems within reach.
Pro's? Many....
VERY good reviews from many online.
Installers and guys decades in the business use it for their own cinemas.
Able to match all drivers in a systems - LCR, surround, atmos - all same drivers, doesn't matter if it's in wall, in room or in ceiling - perfect timbre matching.
Very "no bull" approach, well designed and decision about which speaker range you need is based on the room and the output (and quality) desired, within budget.
Cons?
All just stuff I read and opinions. Will have to fork out around R90k to find out if it really is better that the rest.
Many people are very happy with B&W CWM's and Klipsch, but loads of people suggest Triad as they have had many brands and in the end it gives that ideal sound - the details and clarity that I want, but no strain at high volume. Plus the timbre matching and many options to choose from, all in walls have proper engineered MDF back boxes. Also you can get a bipole for surrounds, helpfull if someone is close to the surround, though not needed for the middle seat especially with atmos / object based audio and a wide dispersion design speaker, but Triad has the option while B&W don not. Klipsch also has the option for a bipole.
So it's a long one, sorry. I'll be happy to check back occasionally when time allows and answer more questions and also answer questions people may have with regards to the speakers I've auditioned in home, if you were looking at one of those and need a well formed opinion.
So please feel free to discuss and suggest. LCR identical, center behind AT screen. Will follow up with matching surrounds / ceiling. Should I risk traid? Should I demo the CT7.3's again? (Think I should but that's another buy and resell loss and one can only pay so much towards the hunt for an upgrade) Should I blindly go to B&W in walls?
Budget is 30k each for the LCR's max. MAX. (I could get the Klipsch for less)
Thanks for your time and consideration!
